interview Otomo Yoshihide Post-March 11, 2011 Musical Explorations Showing “The Thing that Isn’t That” (2/7)
interview and organized by Ito Junnosuke
published in Beyond Boundaries: Comparative Civilizations Now 23 (2023)
translated by Suzuki Yoshiyuki and Cathy Fishman(Futarri)
What is “powerless music”?
Q: You’re participating in the Otoasobi Project (2), and also Nishinari
Children’s Orchestra (3).
Otomo: That’s right. Nishinari Children’s Orchestra started after the earthquake, but the Otoasobi Project started before—in 2005, I think.
Q: For the Otoasobi Project, I think you were approached by music therapists?
Otomo: To be exact, I was asked by graduate students aspiring to be music therapists. I was invited to join a project organized by several students at that graduate school, and somehow I ended up joining—that was how it started.
Q: At that time I think you wrote in [your book] Music They Don’t Teach You in School (4) that you made an objection at first.
Otomo: Yes. Not to the students. I strongly objected to what the music therapist there was saying. As I wrote in the book, I was really annoyed because he said we would make music with children, but then he let the children go and play freely and told us, the parents and other observers, “These sounds of playing are a kind of music.” I said, wait, this isn’t a workshop for us. We’re supposed to make music with the children, not turn them into materials. Then there was an
argument—quite a big one.
Q: In that regard, there’s an interview (5) where you said the performances of the Otoasobi Project or Derek Bailey have a different orientation from the kind of musical power we talked about before. What did you mean specifically?
Otomo: Right, that was in Narushi Hosoda’s interview for AA. But I wasn’t saying I worked with the Otoasobi Project or I like Derek Bailey’s music because they have no musical power. I mean, thinking about it afterwards. When you think about the power of music, you naturally think, so what is music without power, or powerless music—or what kind of music should I make—that kind of thing. I suppose that when I was thinking about that, what seemed to contrast with [musical power] was Derek Bailey and the Otoasobi Project, for instance. I’d always liked things like that, so I thought, oh, that must be why I like them. Derek Bailey and the Otoasobi Project have quite a lot in common. Also, about 20 years ago, at what was then a small gallery in Yoyogi called OffSite, people in the so-called “onkyo” movement, although I don’t know if the term is appropriate—musicians like Taku Sugimoto and Sachiko M—were experimenting with extremely soft sound, and when I saw those performances I really liked them. I thought, this is really good. Anyway, I think that’s more or less “music without power.” On the other hand, in the specific context of this interview, I think the music of Albert Ayler, for instance, has power—a certain kind of power. Of course, that’s a fascinating quality, but I think I was strongly attracted to a different kind of music—something that doesn’t make a lot of people go wild with excitement. I still feel that way. So it isn’t that the types of music are similar, it’s that none of those things—Derek Bailey, the Otoasobi Project, the music played at Off Site—is the kind of music that stirs a lot of people up like that. Well, actually Albert Ayler’s music isn’t the kind of music that makes a lot of people go wild either. So what’s an example of that kind of music? Michael Jackson, or the Beatles. I like that kind of music, too, of course. Or John Lennon’s “Imagine.” I mean, I think what the song says is true. It’s just that I was drawn to a different kind of music, the kind you don’t listen to based on sympathy that comes from the words.
I want to make music with everyone
Q: Well, in terms of a lot of people getting really excited, when you watch a video of Orchestra FUKUSHIMA! (6) there’s quite a lot of excitement, right?
I’m thinking, what’s going on there?
Otomo: Yeah, that’s a contradiction, isn’t it? Why is that? Actually, when I did Orchestra FUKUSHIMA!, I didn’t have the idea of making Derek Bailey-style music, and of course I didn’t think I was going to do the music of the Otoasobi Project, but there are quite a few members of the Otoasobi Project in the group —they came and joined Orchestra FUKUSHIMA! When I decided to do Orchestra FUKUSHIMA!, I was thinking I wanted people to make music together in that place, whether they were professionals or amateurs or whoever, more than I was thinking about the power of music. That’s because there was a concert “bubble” in Fukushima at the time. There were a huge number of
concerts. Rather than give concerts in concert halls, musicians from Tokyo would come and play in various places in the disaster area. There were so many concerts, it made you wonder if people really wanted to hear music every day like that. I don’t think it was a bad thing at all. But in fact there was something that bothered me about that framework—musicians coming from Tokyo and people in the disaster area in Fukushima going to see them play, and that’s it. I thought it would be good to create music in that place, too, along with the people of Fukushima. And I wanted to avoid drawing a line between people from Fukushima and people from other places, so I wanted anyone and everyone to gather and make music together. It was a simple motive, and at the time I wasn’t thinking about whether the power of music would be involved or not. It might have ended up being music with that kind of power, in a way. But
does that kind of thing have power? If it really did, someone probably would have said they wanted to present it in the Olympics opening ceremony or something. Anyway, I’m sure that kind of thing wouldn’t happen.
Q: In fact, it didn’t happen.
Otomo: It didn’t. Even if it hadn’t been during the pandemic, I’m sure it wouldn’t have happened. I don’t think people are looking for that kind of thing. The kind of music where a lot of people—kids, grownups—get together spontaneously, without a clear system, and let loose—that kind of thing would probably never happen in a setting like the Olympics. Although it might just barely have been a possibility in the Paralympics. So I personally don’t think it will go in that direction. On the other hand, even though I talk about music without power, I think it’s true that we created a pretty powerful musical setting.
Q: To you, is having power different from, for instance, being something like a national star?
Otomo: Wait—I don’t care at all about being a star or anything like that. There was a time when I was briefly the focus of attention—when Amachan [a TV series for which Otomo wrote the music] was popular. But it wasn’t that I was a star, it was just that the songs became hits. In terms of having power, I think whether you become the focus of attention is irrelevant. I think the point is how many people are moved by the music itself. It’s the same as the military songs I mentioned before and that kind of thing. For example, if a huge number of people are really moved, you don’t know if it’s going to go in a good direction or not, right? I don’t think musicians have that kind of responsibility at all. What I mean is that I think that kind of thing is scary.
